Jordan D’Nelle 0:01
Welcome to Vaginas, Vulvas, and Vibrators with Jordan D’Nelle. This is a safe place to learn about women’s health and sexual wellness. I’m your host, Jordan D’Nelle, physician assistant, women’s sexual health educator, and intimacy coach. On today’s episode, we are talking with a special guest all about how to talk to your children about their body, about sexual education, sexual health, all of the good stuff. February 2 is National Sex Education Day, and I wanted to bring on a guest to give us some more information about how do you really facilitate this? And where do you go to get information to talk to your children about? I hope you enjoy today’s episode.
If you recently missed Unleash Your Sexual Energy, the Orgasmic Manifestation Experience, you absolutely need to hear this. This experience was beyond anything I could have ever anticipated. It was so beautiful. Women were moving through some of their emotions that are holding them back from being the woman that they really want to be. And it was so beautiful. We had this safe space for women to share about what’s going on with them, women to cry, there were so many things that I taught these ladies to implement in their life in whatever way works best for them. Ultimately, we taught the nine steps of an orgasmic manifestation ritual, which can be used any single way that you want to use them, whether you do all nine all the time, whether you do just a couple of them. It doesn’t matter. This routine and this ritual is for you to create whatever works best for your schedule, for your life, and whatever you need, right here and right now. If you are thinking, wow, I wish that I would have been a part of that, you still can, you can get the recorded version of Unleash Your Sexual Energy, the Orgasmic Manifestation Experience by going to unleash.JordanDnelle.com. I hope that you go to check it out and see if it’s a good fit for you. The feedback, the reviews the ladies have been giving me is just amazing, absolutely amazing, and I could not have asked for a better experience to be created.
Joining me today is Casey. Casey is a former middle school teacher now who helps parents really have these good conversations with their children about their bodies in sexual health. I’m just so excited to have her join me today to share her insight on how to have these conversations and really guide us through this process. So that being said, this episode is dropping in alignment with National Sex Education Day, which is early February, so, this is coming out right before that. And I know that this is one of those topics that can be kind of hard to talk about in that we want to give more education, however, getting it to the kids is sometimes a challenge. And I want to know how do you start talking to your children about sex education?
Casey Wike 3:33
Such a great question. And you’re right, so important. So, so important. And for a lot of us that are parents now, you didn’t grow up with great sexual education. So, it’s kind of hard and tricky to navigate these waters of sex ed, when we don’t have any great role model to go off of. A lot of us are raised in the abstinence only culture, the true love awaits movement happened through the 90s, so that and being raised that way, makes it tricky to navigate. But parents can start as early as they can with their kids, which might surprise some people. Most people are like, Oh, I’ll wait till my kid goes through puberty then we’ll have a talk. Things have really shifted and changed. Gone are the days of “the talk” and having one sit-down sweaty-palm conversation with your child. It’s now a series of little mini talks throughout your child’s life to help them be prepared and to understand what’s going on and be able to come to you as the parent instead of being terrified and wondering about what’s really going on or hearing things at school and just believing them as facts. So yeah, I just encourage parents to start super young. And what’s really interesting is that our intimacy and sexuality center of our brain develops from the moment that we have that first embrace, so when your parents pick you up and hug or kiss you as a little baby, your brain is already starting to develop these things. And then you, as a toddler, are watching and taking in so much of the world. So, you’re watching what your parents are doing in relationships, or how they’re responding to things, the names that they’re calling things, you’re trying to understand your world. And so that is setting up this foundation when it’s critical. And we don’t often think that sex ed begins when our children are young like infancy or toddlerhood. But it truly, truly does, because there’s so many aspects to it. So of course, I’m not sitting down with a two-year-old telling them the ins and outs of sex, right. But I am going to lay the foundation for that. I am going to use proper terms for their body parts. I am going to talk to them about touch. I am going to start working on giving them consent to make choices on how they are touched, those types of little things, so that we can build up to some of the bigger topics later.
Jordan D’Nelle 5:56
Yes, and I think that’s so important. A lot of adults don’t have proper terminology for their body parts. And that’s something that I’ve kind of come across is educating adults on proper terminology, and just more about their bodies, period. But if they don’t have that information, they can’t teach their children either. And sex ed with kids is so much more than just birds in the bees like, consent is so huge. I have a girlfriend, she’s got a toddler now, but I remember when he was a lot younger, I had said to her, If he doesn’t want to hug, he doesn’t want to hug, that’s fine. I’m not going to force it and get my hug from him. Because that is teaching kids at a young age that consent, and that I don’t want to say doesn’t matter, but your boundaries don’t necessarily have to be followed.
Casey Wike 6:47
Yeah, absolutely. I’ve dealt with that in my own family, with my in-laws. They don’t mean any harm by it, but they grew up in a time where when someone came to the house, you went and gave the person a hug and a kiss. And my husband and I have had to shift and say, look, it’s really important to us that we’re letting our kids make the choice for themselves and how and when their body is touched and giving them that autonomy and teaching them this early. They might just wave, or they might stand behind us until they’re comfortable. And then later on, they might come over and be okay with a hugger because there’s something but that’s going to be their choice, and we’re not forcing it on them. And that is a super hard conversation to have about standing up for your kids and being able to say that to friends and family can be a little bit intimidating as a parent.
Jordan D’Nelle 7:33
Oh, absolutely. I don’t have kids. And so, most of my experiences with children are the fact that I am the aunt of many of my friends, kids. And so, I’m familiar with understanding how it works, but obviously it’s a little bit different not having my own kids. And, yeah, I mean those conversations, I can only imagine talking to somebody and telling them, Hey, this is how we are choosing to parent, and we want to instill these values in our child at a young age. Please respect them. That can be a really tough conversation.
Casey Wike 8:07
Yeah, it definitely is. I think if you have a partner or a spouse, it’s so helpful if you can come at it together and back one another up. But we kind of looked at it from the standpoint of, we have to be the best teachers and protectors of our kids, and that might be with family and friends, that might be with outsiders in the community, whatnot, but if we don’t stand up for them and say these things as a united front, then we’re not giving them that best possible trajectory through your childhood and then into adolescence and adulthood. So, that can be super helpful. It is definitely uncomfortable, especially if you haven’t grown up that way. Breaking down these barriers or changing what a relationship looks like in a family can be a little bit intimidating, but it’s well worth it, I would say. And in my experience, it’s been well received. Some of the grandparents, aunts and uncles have said, Oh my gosh, I didn’t even think about it. I’m so glad that you brought that up to my attention. They weren’t offended, where others kind of looked at you strangely. They respond like, really? And you said no. Well, it’s really important that they have body awareness and that they are able to advocate for their needs and their wants, and that starts now. And we kind of just put our foot down and stand by our kids. And it is what it is. So, yeah, I just don’t have a problem saying it, but the first few times as a mom, I was like, sorry, I’m gonna step on people’s toes. But you know, it’s for my kids, and it’s for the best that I can do for them.
Jordan D’Nelle 9:27
Yeah, and I think this generation of parents is really trying hard to do the work to raise their children differently. And so, like my mom, she’s doing the work now. But there’s a lot of things that we have conversations about that would have made a huge difference growing up, and I think that like my grandma, she doesn’t know what she doesn’t know. And they don’t necessarily know Oh, these are some of the things that would have been helpful to discuss with my child 40 years ago, or things like that. And so, bringing it up and just bringing awareness helps educate other people.
Casey Wike 10:03
Absolutely. Yeah. So important.
Jordan D’Nelle 10:05
So how do you start these conversations?
Casey Wike 10:11
So, my approach is to just keep it simple. It doesn’t, again, have to be something big or major in using teachable moments that happen in life, or something that’s going on is a great way to get started. Whether your kid is two or whether your kid is 10, there’s lots of opportunities. There can be a pregnant lady in the grocery store, and you talk about it, like, Hey, did you notice that pregnant woman? Do you ever wonder about that? It depends on what you’ve covered already, but if you haven’t covered anything, it can be as simple as talking about a baby growing inside a uterus and not just placed inside a female body, and just starting that way. Starting with correct anatomy and letting kids know what is what, so they’re identifying terms. You see something on TV or in a movie, that’s an easy jumping off point to start a conversation with your child too. So, it doesn’t have to be this big lecture. You’re not bringing in all sorts of materials and doing home presentations. It should be short and sweet. One to three minute conversations over and over and over are what’s going to impact and make a bigger impact and bigger effect on your kids than sitting down for one big talk. But parents can introduce books, parents can introduce videos and things to help them if they’re feeling nervous about what to start with. I also have just a freebie that I give to people; it’s a list of topics because parents want to know when to talk about XYZ. So, I’ve broken it down by age. And it’s kind of just a rough estimate of what to cover at what ages. So, with the very youngest kids, again, we’re talking about the names for body parts, we’re talking about consent, where we’re talking about keeping secrets, not keeping secrets, the different types of touch, and that kind of thing. So, we’re starting basic. And then as they get older, we add more to that.
Jordan D’Nelle 12:04
I love that. And there’s a couple things that come to mind. One of which is, when you have parents that maybe don’t have the correct information or don’t feel confident in that information, how do you educate parents to have this conversation?
Casey Wike 12:20
So, there’s tons of things that parents can do to feel competent and get the information they need. I personally offer one on one coaching, group workshops, group coaching to get parents of this feed. And we do a lot of work looking at our family values and the way that we were raised and kind of unpacking that so we can then move forward and look at what our goals are for our kids. And thinking about what our hopes and dreams for our kids for all aspects of their life are, including health and sexuality, which are things that we don’t often sit down and consider. When parents are talking about their kids, they usually say things like, Oh, I hope they have a great job one day, or I hope they get into a good college. I hope they have some great friends. But we don’t normally say I hope they experience pleasure in their sex life. Most parents will be like, Oh my goodness, I don’t even want to think about it. But, what we do, and how we talk to them as kids really can shape those relationships that they get into later. And so, we look at those aspects of Well, I really value open communication and respecting others or how am I teaching that to my kids now, so that they can in turn be able to do that in a relationship later. So, it’s important that parents look at themselves first, and then start small and see everything in bite sized pieces. One of the greatest things about being a parent is that when you mess up, because you will, you can always just circle back and say in a different way and say look, I got the ball. I did not say that the right way, or I should have explained that differently. You know, or, Hey, we’ve never used the correct names or body parts before, but it is really important for someone to start now. I’m sorry that I didn’t do that when you were younger. And that goes a long way with kids of just being honest and speaking the truth and acknowledging if you’ve messed up or if you didn’t give them the information they needed sooner.
Jordan D’Nelle 14:11
I love that and it builds trust between your child and you if you’re able to just be honest and say hey, I made a mistake because we are all human and then that creates a safe space for them also to be upfront and say, Hey, I made a mistake, especially as they become teenagers. They’re gonna mess up but messing up in the safety of your home is also more beneficial than them messing up and not having that safe space. So, I actually had somebody come on ahead of this podcast episode; it just dropped last week; it was on ethical porn. One of the things that came up was talking to your children about porn, but then also when it comes to watching movies, and seeing sex scenes, rather than just speeding over them, start having a discussion about hey, Did she look like she was enjoying that? Did that look like a pleasurable experience, and talking more about it, I mean, obviously at the right age, rather than just like skimming over the fact that this is part of our lives, as human sexual beings.
Casey Wike 15:16
Yes, so important, I think it surprises some parents that the average age that kids are now being explosive pornography is between eight and 11. And then when we look at middle schoolers, about 90% of middle schoolers have seen or at least been exposed one time to porn by the end of middle school, by the end of eighth grade. And so oftentimes, parents are waiting and waiting to have these conversations, or they’re too nervous to talk about it. But it’s part of the culture that we live in. And it’s important for them to get the facts and to understand the fantasy behind it as well; that it is a production; that it is put on for fun, and it’s not a form of education. A lot of kids are looking to it, being exposed to it, and then being curious, and then looking to it as their source of education, because mom or dad, or uncle, grandma, whoever hasn’t ever had that conversation saying, Hey, there are different types out there. There are reasons that it’s not made for kids, there’s reasons why people would watch it or wouldn’t watch it and in tying in your family values to that. And so instead of being petrified, it’s really important to unpack it even from a younger age than most parents realize. That’s a conversation that can start so simple like, hey, there’s a book out there called good pictures, bad pictures. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. But I mean, using that kind of framework or that mindset of there are good pictures in the world and there are bad pictures, or there’s pictures out there that aren’t for a kid’s eyes, and so if you see something like that, I want you to let me know. Just keeping that dialogue going so that you’re not waiting until you find something on their browser history when they were 15 and now, we’ve never talked about it, which I think is difficult.
Jordan D’Nelle 17:04
Yeah. And that goes back to, if you’re not sharing this information with your children, if you’re not being the person that they can feel comfortable talking to about it, they’re going to be curious, and they’re going to search. And so, if you have those conversations early, you’re going to potentially actually, I’m not gonna say prevent them from finding porn, but when they see it, they’re prepared for what they see, rather than totally caught off guard, and think that, oh, that’s how sex is actually like, and that’s not the case.
Casey Wike 17:39
Right? Yeah, absolutely. And just the amount of physical violence that is now in mainstream form. 15% have physical aggression or violence, and we need to be letting our kids know that is not typical of a relationship. There’s also consent in there, there’s also most oftentimes no forms of protection against STIs, or pregnancy, and so that’s not the reality of what to expect in a real relationship. Being curious and wanting to know is great, and all people are curious and want to know as they’re growing up about what it is. But we need to help them understand the difference between what they’re seeing in movies, on TV, or in pornography, as opposed to what real life situations would be like, because oftentimes, they don’t model real life situations. I love using that like, hey, in that movie, what did you see? Or is that real life? Or I taught middle school for many years, and so I would say things like, how kids talk these days, is that how you and your friends would talk in a relationship? And they’re like, oh, no, that’s not like, no way. They would never say that, or those people didn’t say anything. And then they just started making out. Those kinds of conversations can really bring you as a parent closer to your child, and getting into what their mindset is, but then also being able to bring in your family values or say things like, yeah, that really wasn’t real life. That’s never how it’s worked in my life and can be very helpful. And so those types of conversations are sex education. We don’t always think of them as like talking about a commercial or whatever. Those are little pieces of sex education. It’s not this giant book or something.
Jordan D’Nelle 19:17
Yeah, and I think that’s one of the biggest misconceptions is that so many times we think of sex as penetration. And when we think of sex education, it’s just penetrative sex. And the reality is, there’s so much more to it. And proper education would potentially prevent a lot of things. I think one in three or four women are sexually assaulted. A lot of times that’s by somebody that they know, and it comes down to consent. They didn’t necessarily know how to get proper consent. They didn’t understand or also they were taught at a young age that consent doesn’t matter when people didn’t listen to their boundaries when they didn’t want to hug, things like that. I mean, it’s a bigger picture than being straightforward, but at the end of the day, it’s so much more than penetration.
Casey Wike 20:08
Right! And if we’re just waiting on schools . . . I get that a lot, too, when I’m working with parents or talking with families, you know, we’ll just wait until school covers it, and then see if they have questions. And what I try to let parents know is that a lot of our states in the US don’t even mandate sex education. And then those that do I think, out of the ones that do I think there’s 29 that do, maybe, and 17 of them are like, okay, then it needs to be comprehensive and accurate. In other states, it’s kind of a free for all, so you don’t know what necessarily your kids are getting. I did teach middle school sex education in a public-school setting, which kind of propelled me to want to do this, because kids have such great questions, and I felt very constrained by the curriculum that I was given and the training that I had, you can or cannot answer certain things. But some of their questions, frankly, were just family value questions that were really great. If you could ask your parents these because each family will differ in how they feel about them, and then they are terrified to go home and talk to mom or dad, because then in six through eighth grade if they’ve never had that conversation yet it’s extremely awkward to approach that if their parents have never opened up about it. So, the sooner the better. And really, we can’t rely on our schools to give comprehensive sex education because unfortunately, it just isn’t the case in the majority of districts and counties across the United States, really, across the world.
Jordan D’Nelle 21:40
Yeah. I’m so glad that you brought that up, because that was something that was on my mind to talk to you about is that so many parents want their children to have a better sex education, but expect schools to do it, or don’t allow the school system to provide that information. They’re like, Oh, well, they can’t do this, they can’t do this, but I want them to have better information. How do you expect them to get information then if you’re not willing to give it, but you won’t want the schools to give it either?
Casey Wike 22:07
Right. And it’s so tricky. The kids are going to find the information regardless, and it might not be the information you want them to have or the perspective that you want them to have. And so that’s a huge part of what I do is always tying it back to those family values and those core values, because sex is a very personal thing, but we all have our own understanding and beliefs about it. And if we’re not sharing those with our kids, then they will never know. Not that they’re necessarily expected to have the same family values, but they’re more likely to share the family values if we first share them with them. And they know what they are, if they don’t even know what they are, or why they are what they are, which is really important to if we always just say like, no, wait till you’re married, but we never give a why or any explanation, and we don’t give any further information on how to be safe or what a relationship looks like, that kind of thing. It’s very confusing. Your child is likely to not follow your family values, because you haven’t given them rational reasoning to do so. It’s interesting, too, that majority of parents will say like, oh, yeah, I hope my child waits to engage in sexual activity until they’re married, or till they’re in a long term, committed relationship. But 95% of people do not wait. So, we can hope and desire that for our children, but they also deserve a lot more information to prepare them for the real world if they do not feel that they want to make that choice for themselves.
Jordan D’Nelle 23:32
Yeah, and the other thing you know, is when you tell somebody, they can’t do something, so many times, especially teenagers, they want to do it to be rebellious. And so that, “Hey, don’t do it because we don’t” kind of attitude or thought process backfires; I think a lot.
Casey Wike 23:50
Yeah, yeah, I agree that it does. Whereas if you’ve been talking about it their whole life, they’re not going out to do this to spite Mom or Dad. It’s like, I’m choosing to do this because I want to, and I’m informed, and I feel like I have a lot of good information. I’m making the best choice for me possible, because you’ve raised them to think through lots of different aspects and had conversations about how do you know if you’re ready, and what signs are things that you want to think about before you engage in this type of relationship with someone. And that sets them up for much more success in an intimate physical relationship than going out there and just trying it because peer pressure or because mom or dad said don’t, or whatever. We want our kids to be able to make informed good decisions for themselves and not be regretful and get themselves into situations that are not comfortable for them.
Jordan D’Nelle 24:41
Absolutely. You brought up a really good point in that, how do you know when you’re ready? What are some tips that you talk to parents about to help them? What do you tell your parents to talk to their kids about when it comes to them being ready for sex and intimacy?
Casey Wike 25:04
There are so many things that go into it. So, this is again, not going to be like a one-time conversation. The parents are going to have to really talk with their kids, their teens about these things. So, asking them some great questions like, Well, do you know how to be safe? How to protect yourself from infection, and pregnancy? And walking them through the different methods and figuring out what the best method is for them? And if they’re not comfortable talking about that, with you, or with a partner, then they’re not ready to have sex. And are they comfortable explaining things that they would like to do or like to have done to them with a partner? If they’re not, they’re likely not ready to be in that type of relationship. If the relationship doesn’t work out in the long run, are they going to be heartbroken because they were connecting physically with someone? Are they prepared to go in and see a doctor and get screened and tested regularly and talk to a doctor about what’s going on and what they’re doing physically with a sexual partner? Again, if they’re not willing to do those things, then they likely are not ready to be engaging in this type of relationship. But instead of just saying, No, you can’t do it, we’re helping them develop those skills of how you and your partner communicate. Do you guys have a safe space? Do you have safe places? What would you do if the condom broke? Or whatever and walking them through some of those scenarios so that they’re prepared, and they can say, Yep, I feel this. And then too just saying it’s one thing to be nervous and anxious, but excited . . . if you’re not feeling excited, if you’re just feeling nervous, if you’re feeling like I’m just not sure, then that’s a red flag in your brain, and you need to listen to that. And if you’re having those, I’m not sure moments, I don’t think, or whatever, or if you’re listening to other kids saying you should do it, you have to listen to your inner voice. That is huge, and really hard for a lot of people, not just teenagers, but listening to your inner voice of saying, Yes, this is what I want, this is good; this is exciting to me, as opposed to, I’m not sure, I just don’t want to be broken up with, so I guess I’ll do it. And so, there’s so many conversations that can be had, but it’s really important to let them know that you are there for them, that it is their journey, or that you can inform them and support them and give them guidance. That then is their choice to make at what point they decide. And all of these experiences are going to be part of their sexual history or their story, so are they choosing to write the story that they want, or not. And then as the parent we don’t want to put so much of our perspectives on our kids, because we have to make our own choices. We have the ability to do what we wanted or didn’t want to in sexual relationships. But each person is their own, and they are on that journey. And again, we are their guide. You’re there to help teach them, but ultimately, they have to make those choices for themselves.
Jordan D’Nelle 28:01
And I think that is one of the coolest things about parenting is that you are ultimately giving your kid the tools to successfully run their own life. And that’s all it’s about; I can’t make these decisions for you, but here’s some tools to help guide you and some things to consider when you make these types of decisions. Whether it’s with life or intimacy, it doesn’t matter. So, I love that. Now, you mentioned the one book, do you have any other books that you typically recommend for parents who want to start having these conversations and don’t necessarily know where to start or that you just really like?
Casey Wike 28:40
Yeah, there’s lots of books. When I grew up there really were not very good books out there, but there’s so many great ones now. There are books that you can use starting from a very young age with kids. I even have a book that I use with my kids called What Makes the Baby by Corey Silverberg. This one is awesome. It talks about different ways that babies can come together, and babies are born and the different kinds of family dynamics of who was waiting for babies to be born. Very simple. It does talk about sperm and egg, but it does not talk specifically about penetration. But Corey Silverberg makes another one called Sex is a Funny Word that kind of can help break the ice if you’re struggling with just the sex parts. Again, it doesn’t talk about the penetration, but just all these nuances of that word. There’s It’s So Amazing by Ruby Harris, or It’s Perfectly Normal. She has lots of books Ruby Harris does. I love her material as well and these books are kind of broken down by age bands. But you can start reading books with your kids on these topics at age two or three, like C is for Consent. That’s a toddler board book that little children can be reading. Then there’s other great books, like SE X by Heather Corrina. It’s great for teens. It’s a comprehensive book for teens and young people into their 20s, to learn all about these different aspects of so many questions they may have. It’s a really thick book, but that really walks them through these different areas. So, if parents are struggling with children who are older, there are books tailored to that. And I wrote a blog post on this a few months back of just 30 or 40 different books broken down by age. I’m always happy to share that with parents too. And they can go through and see what I have chosen. Tons of great books out there. Libraries have them. And I’m more than happy to recommend to parents based on certain needs that they might have as well.
Jordan D’Nelle 30:39
Love that. The book that my mom got me, which was not sex based, but more like sexual health: developing into a girl based was the American Girl book about the body, The Care the Keeping of You.
Casey Wike 30:51
Still very popular. And they have a number one and number two version. So, number one starts like with seven-year-olds -ish. Then the second version starts around 9 or 10, so it kind of just adds on to that. Yeah, there’s great books for puberty for figuring out bodies. There’s one that’s called Puberty is Really Gross, But Also Really Awesome, which, just funny, because it has good diagrams, and it has interesting information.
Yes, I love it. I love it. So, I definitely want to know, where can we find your resource or your freebie for when to start having these conversations or kind of that guideline for different age groups?
So, on my website is a great place, CaseyWike.com, and I’m also on Instagram, @CaseyWike, I post tons of reels and videos, and there’s links there to my website and my different resources and things like that. I also recently made a guide for parents to help them talk to their kids about porn. And so really unpacking that topic and working through the ins and outs of that, and that’s available on my website as well.
Jordan D’Nelle 32:10
Oh, I love it. I love it. If the listeners take one thing away from today’s conversation, what would you hope that it is?
Casey Wike 32:16
I just want people to know that it’s never too early or too late to start. You are truly your child’s best source for information if you want to be. And there’s so many things that they can learn from the world that are not accurate, so by taking that step, even when you’re not ready, it’s going to be huge for your kids. I just want parents to jump in and say, Okay, I’m all in. I’m going to do it instead of waiting and reading and pushing it off. Start talking to your child today. And it can, like I said, it can be literal, it can be talking about, you know, just the anatomy of the body, or it can be going into bigger conversations, but we have to start somewhere. And any of those places is a great place to start because we want our kids to know our perspective and our point of view. So don’t be afraid and reach out to someone like myself, if you’re struggling. If you need help. If you need someone to say Yep, that sounds great. That’s exactly the words you need or here, let me help you with getting these words out. That’s what I do. I walk alongside parents to help them make sure that they’re saying what they want to say and in troubleshooting as they’re having these conversations.
I love it. Thank you so much for joining me and having this conversation. It has definitely been very informational. I think so many of my listeners who do have children are going to love this perspective. So, I appreciate your time.
Very welcome. I’m so happy to be here.
Jordan D’Nelle 33:40
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Jordan D'Nelle 